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Thread: Shamrock says Brock Lesnar could have been the best MMA fighter ever

  1. #11
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    Hard to tell. Maybe if he started early. But his aversion to being hit and the fact that he already had made his money certainly hampered his progress.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniggles View Post
    He's on TRT at the ripe old age of 27.
    Steroids are a hell of a drug.

    As far as lesnar goes. I can agree with some points here. I always thought he could've been groomed better. At the same time though when you demand too dollar for your services you fight top opponents. I do think, however, that his aversion to being hit could've been corrected if he had been fighting when he was a college kid. I doubt his childhood ego would've let him turtle up on the floor. He would've been younger hungrier and broke. The lesnar we saw was older already wealthy and pampered.
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    I don't care how much you get paid, if you haven't earned top opponents then you shouldn't get top opponents.

    I wish Kurt Angle would have choose MMA.
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  4. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I can't really agree here. brock was still allergic to getting hit in the face, and that's not something training generally fixes. I also don't think he was as great a wrestler as people gave him credit for, in terms of technical skills...and he had a LONG time to work on his technical wrestling.

    As far as giving him tough opponents...when you're one of the top 5 highest paid fighters in the league before you have a single win, you're going to get elite fighters. If lesnar wanted to take a slow road, he could have taken a lower pay scale.

    rh
    I think it can take a while to figure out which hits are actually hurting you and which aren't. He's definitely not a guy who loves the pain, but I think he could have developed composure with better training. My understanding is he wasn't pushed in that regard at his camp either.

    I also think that impacts your perspective on his wrestling. IMO, Lesnar was too amped up and nervous about strikes during his UFC run to have the composure and control that defines strong wrestling. His straight wrestling credentials are certainly strong and I think the challenge with his MMA wrestling had more to do with lack of experience and composure than anything else.

  5. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnchorPunch View Post
    I think it can take a while to figure out which hits are actually hurting you and which aren't. He's definitely not a guy who loves the pain, but I think he could have developed composure with better training. My understanding is he wasn't pushed in that regard at his camp either.

    I also think that impacts your perspective on his wrestling. IMO, Lesnar was too amped up and nervous about strikes during his UFC run to have the composure and control that defines strong wrestling. His straight wrestling credentials are certainly strong and I think the challenge with his MMA wrestling had more to do with lack of experience and composure than anything else.
    ...so what you're saying is he had physical gifts and he chose not to make the most of them. I can buy that.

    He had a great record in college, mostly due to his physicality. He chose not to develop technique, and relied on said physicality to cover holes in his game throughout his life. He didn't push himself in training, nor did he seek the company of anyone who would force him to the next level.

    regardless of his eventual health issues, that comes down to his choices, every time.

    I think you could say that just about any fighter with great physical gifts could have been "the best ever" if they'd made the right decisions. Barring the new levels the UFC overhype machine sunk to for him, I don't think brock was particularly unique or special in any way.

    rh
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  6. #17
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    From what I understood listening to Brock and Dana interviews, Brock wanted big fights right away and wasn't interested in being built up - so I think Shamrock's criticism should be directed more at Lesnar. If Lesnar had started earlier and worked his way up, I think he would have been a significantly better fighter, as it was he was simply a big man he could overpower some but not others.

    Frank Mir has more technical skill than Lesnar, but Mir is just one one of those fighters who isn't strong in wrestling and therefore couldn't avoid being taken down. The second Lesnar/Mir fight was really bizarre to watch because even though Lesnar kicked the shit out of him, he didn't do it with technique, he just out-muscled him - it was like watching a kid wrestle his older brother.

    Lesnar's big problems were his over-eagerness, aversion to being hit, and striking. I think his tendency to rush things, as well as his striking would have been improved a lot in he had taken things slowly. Maybe he never would have been able to take punches well, but I don't know if that would have inhibited him too much if he had fixed the other problems.

  7. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    ...so what you're saying is he had physical gifts and he chose not to make the most of them. I can buy that.

    He had a great record in college, mostly due to his physicality. He chose not to develop technique, and relied on said physicality to cover holes in his game throughout his life. He didn't push himself in training, nor did he seek the company of anyone who would force him to the next level.

    regardless of his eventual health issues, that comes down to his choices, every time.

    I think you could say that just about any fighter with great physical gifts could have been "the best ever" if they'd made the right decisions. Barring the new levels the UFC overhype machine sunk to for him, I don't think brock was particularly unique or special in any way.

    rh
    I think we're roughly in agreement. I do think he's a pretty rare human being in his pure physical gifts, even for top-level athletes. But it's all conjecture at this point, obviously.

  8. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    ...so what you're saying is he had physical gifts and he chose not to make the most of them. I can buy that.

    He had a great record in college, mostly due to his physicality. He chose not to develop technique, and relied on said physicality to cover holes in his game throughout his life. He didn't push himself in training, nor did he seek the company of anyone who would force him to the next level.

    regardless of his eventual health issues, that comes down to his choices, every time.

    I think you could say that just about any fighter with great physical gifts could have been "the best ever" if they'd made the right decisions. Barring the new levels the UFC overhype machine sunk to for him, I don't think brock was particularly unique or special in any way.

    rh
    Where did you hear about this horrible and lazy training? Because everything I have heard and I have been following Brock since his college days and early WWE days has been the opposite. Everyone has said in training the guy was/is an animal and trains like a mad man. In the WWE his work ethic was the stuff of legends. Plus his team wasn't was bumbling group of idiots, he trainined with Pat Barry and Cole Konard and many others at Minnesota Fighting Arts.

    The issue with Brock was that he was a novice that was thrown to the wolves right off the bat. Seriously, in his second fight he fought a former UFC champion, his 3rd fight was against Heath Herring and his 4th was against Randy freakin Couture. The guy didn't get any breaks. You think if he went to MMA right after college that he would have been fed to the wolvesl ike that or do you think he would have been given plenty of warm-up fights to delevope his skills. He had to rely on his size and natural talents because he never had the time to really get any other real skills. Could you imagine if Brock was able to come up through like everyone else and had 3-4 years of MMA expierence and 10-12 fights under his belt by the time he came to the UFC. The guy would have been a complete monster. Not saying he wouldn't have been the best all time but he woudl have been a terror for years.
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  9. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masscore View Post
    Where did you hear about this horrible and lazy training?
    I never said it was horrible or lazy...those are your words. I said he didn't push himself out of his comfort zone or seek the company of anyone who can take him to the next level. Barry and Konrad are very nice guys--but they're not exactly going to transform anyone into the best ever.

    The issue with Brock was that he was a novice that was thrown to the wolves right off the bat.
    The problem with brock is that he wanted to be paid on his celebrity, and to do that, he had to fight talented guys. But...the wolves? hardly.

    Seriously, in his second fight he fought a former UFC champion,
    Q: Mir hadn't beaten a ranked fighter in how many years before he beat brock?
    A: FOUR YEARS since he was relevant.
    his 3rd fight was against Heath Herring
    Q: how many years had it been since Herring had beaten a ranked fighter?
    A: All of them.
    and his 4th was against Randy freakin Couture.
    Randy Freaking Couture?
    Please. Randy was never a world-beater at HW. He was something like 9 and 5 when he faced brock, he gave up 14 years, 50+lbs and 6 inches of reach, and he hadn't fought in 15 months.

    Hardly the wolf-pack revisionist history is trying to make it out as.

    The guy didn't get any breaks. You think if he went to MMA right after college that he would have been fed to the wolvesl ike that or do you think he would have been given plenty of warm-up fights to delevope his skills. He had to rely on his size and natural talents because he never had the time to really get any other real skills. Could you imagine if Brock was able to come up through like everyone else and had 3-4 years of MMA expierence and 10-12 fights under his belt by the time he came to the UFC. The guy would have been a complete monster. Not saying he wouldn't have been the best all time but he woudl have been a terror for years.
    ...again...

    My point is that he had physical gifts, and HIS CHOICES were what kept him from being on any potential "best eva" lists.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    Yeah, Bye.

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