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Thread: UFC Wrongly Scored Nurmagomedov's Mat Returns as Takedowns

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    Default UFC Wrongly Scored Nurmagomedov's Mat Returns as Takedowns

    UFC 160: UFC Wrongly Scored Nurmagomedov's Mat Returns as Takedowns - Bloody Elbow

    By Mike Riordan
    Takedowns factor hugely in MMA judging, and the UFC faithfully maintains takedown statistics, in spite of the fact that neither the Unified Rules nor the UFC actually define a takedown. This problem was illustrated at UFC 160 where stats showed Khabib Nurmagomedov converting a record number of takedowns despite the fact that any sensible definition of a takedown would not have included Khabib's mat returns.
    f the UFC, and MMA in general, is going to keep track of takedowns, they should at least look into employing a reasonable definition of what constitutes a takedown. It's bad enough that in the process of judging a fight, takedowns are heavily overvalued, but both the world's leading MMA promotion and athletic commission judges who are scoring fights aren't employing an objective set of guidelines for what a takedown is, and what it isn't.

    This problem is on display whenever Mike Goldberg identifies a wrestling sequence as a "takedown", though no control was ever established (I fear judges may do the same). It was particularly on display at UFC 160 where Khabib Nurmagomedov was awarded a UFC record for takedowns, in spite of the fact that most of what he was doing should never have been considered a takedown.

    I think the task of keeping stats in combat sports to prove the worth or lack of worth of a combatant is largely an idiotic pursuit. The whole beauty and allure of combat sports is that stats are irrelevant because somebody gets their hand raised at the end. As a wrestling coach, I've had parents of my athletes vilify me for not placing importance on the numbers of escapes, reversals and takedowns they score throughout the year. Many of these parents didn't get it when I informed them that the only stat that really means anything is how many medal stands they stand on at the end of the season, and how high on them they stand. I always maintained a very faithful register of that statistic.

    [Note: If you keep stats for the purpose of keeping track of what techniques work and what don't, with the intention of better preparing a fighter for future competition, then that is clearly not idiotic.]

    Returning from my digression, the UFC seems like it's going to insist on keeping track of takedowns and takedown conversion ratios. I find this troubling as neither the UFC nor the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts promulgates a definition of what a takedown is (the Unified Rules allude to takedowns but don't define them). When they get around to it, such a promulgation should be modeled on the standards already set by the takedown experts- NCAA wrestling or Olympic styled wrestling.

    FILA (international wrestling's sanctioning body) defines a takedown in Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling as the following:
    ●To the wrestler who brings his opponent to the ground by passing behind him, and while in this position holding him down with control (three points of contact: two arms and one knee or twoknees and one arm or the head).

    The NCAA wrestling rule book defines a takedown thusly:
    ● A takedown shall be awarded when, from the neutral position, a contestant gains control by taking the opponent down to the mat in bounds and beyond reaction time. When a significant portion of the defensive wrestler’s weight is borne on a hand(s), it is considered control.

    Both of these definitions are fairly vague, but this rarely poses problems as referees in all these styles of wrestling rigorously apply well established conventions which answer any questions left open by the official rules. There are slight differences between what is conventionally called a takedown in the Olympic styles and the American scholastic style, and the UFC and athletic commissions should pick one set of conventions and use them as their official takedown definition.




    Differences aside, the conventions and rules of all three styles of wrestling discussed in this post would conclude that the UFC should not have credited Khabib Nurmagomedov with many takedowns against Abel Trujillo at UFC 160. Neither Greco, freestyle, nor scholastic wrestling rewards a wrestler with a takedown for lifting and returning his opponent to the ground when his opponent stands up from underneath him, in a belly to back position, after a takedown has already been established. This is known as a "mat return", and in college wrestling scores no points. The most preeminent of the world's wrestling styles, do not score this as a takedown, nor should any. The concept of a takedown is predicated on achieving control, not on maintaining it.
    And if you want beef, then bring the ruckus

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    Takedowns or not takedowns Khabib did a very impressive performance considering that Trujillo is a wrestler.
    Nurmagomedov made him look like a little doll.
    Not only brazilians can do this stuff


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    And if you want beef, then bring the ruckus

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    Even in wrestling he would have racked up riding time, but this isn't wrestling if a guy has your back and he gets you on the ground then that is a terrible spot to be in.

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    I think we need to worry about the ref's and judges before we get all involved in take down diffenitions.

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    I don't particularly care if they miscounted takedowns. He won. The judges got it right. That's really all that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnchorPunch View Post
    So if I don't sin, when I die, I go to Canada? Right?

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    He is correct though, something that Rogan repeatedly got incorrect. When an opponent gets back to his feet, but the other opponent has a body lock from behind and then returns him to the mat; that isn't an additional takedown. That being said, Trujillo got fucking abused; its like he never learned how to pummel or roll out of a bad position.
    Jones Era >> Machida Era
    Favorite fighters: Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Michael Johnson, Jose Aldo, Chris Weidman.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPeezy View Post
    Another intelligent contribution by CTGreat.

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    i'm way to lazy to read all that so i skimmed. can somone explain how the russian's takedowns were not "takdowns?" i'm kinda confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbondioxide830 View Post
    i'm way to lazy to read all that so i skimmed. can somone explain how the russian's takedowns were not "takdowns?" i'm kinda confused.
    read the article... You're confused because you're lazy... You dont even have to research its right in front of you're face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimerules28 View Post
    read the article... You're confused because you're lazy... You dont even have to research its right in front of you're face.
    sorry sir. you're right.

    usually i would have a better comeback, but as you already know...



    okay, after reading, i'm still confused because i've watched the fight 2 or 3 times and never once was i thinking "that's not a takedown!" they all looked like takedowns to me.

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