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Thread: JDS: Cain didn't prove he was the better fighter

  1. #41
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    I'm going to have to disagree with the Velasquez bandwagon.

    In no way am I saying Cain wasn't dominant in both wins, and in no way am I saying that he's not a better, more skilled fighter than JDS.

    But I don't see him as being on a completely different level than JDS, I don't think the first fight can be dismissed as a fluke because of Cain's knee, and I think anyone who thinks Cain is just going to walk through JDS's best punches isn't watching the same fight I saw.

    Cain is a better fighter because he's adapted more. He's always been a more complete fighter, but he's come back from the loss much more focused and brought more to the table. JDS is trying to beat Cain with a strategy Cain figured out almost two years ago. He's literally not doing anything different. But he's got the power and the skill to beat Cain, if he can employ a better plan. He rocked him twice in the first, but didn't look to follow or to create distance after either shot--he allowed Cain to clinch and recover. Note: clinching and recovering is NOT "walking through" punches. Not even close. Cain may have walked through some shots later in the bout, but bear in mind that JDS doesn't remember anything beyond the second round. That's going to impact his the effectiveness of his striking a bit.

    Right now, if they fight 10 times, Cain wins 7, maybe even 8, in my opinion. If JDS looked for a change of camp, or brought in someone to help him create distance and bring some fluidity to his transitions and have him mix up his striking more instead of a pure-boxing stance, those odds get dramatically closer, and I'd love to see those fights. At a distance, JDS was great for the two rounds he can actually remember. The problem is without a dramatic improvement in Dos Santos' game, Cain isn't going to allow Dos Santos to fight him at striking distance.

    I think that's what JDS is trying to say, albeit much whinier and more clumsily.

    I think Cain is amazing--and there is no denying he's better than Dos Santos [and isn't a whiner, to boot]--but some of the stuff posted on here is a little rose-colored. JDS doesn't have to hit him behind the ear. The headkick that KO'd Hunt? That would do it.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with the Velasquez bandwagon.

    In no way am I saying Cain wasn't dominant in both wins, and in no way am I saying that he's not a better, more skilled fighter than JDS.

    But I don't see him as being on a completely different level than JDS, I don't think the first fight can be dismissed as a fluke because of Cain's knee, and I think anyone who thinks Cain is just going to walk through JDS's best punches isn't watching the same fight I saw.

    Cain is a better fighter because he's adapted more. He's always been a more complete fighter, but he's come back from the loss much more focused and brought more to the table. JDS is trying to beat Cain with a strategy Cain figured out almost two years ago. He's literally not doing anything different. But he's got the power and the skill to beat Cain, if he can employ a better plan. He rocked him twice in the first, but didn't look to follow or to create distance after either shot--he allowed Cain to clinch and recover. Note: clinching and recovering is NOT "walking through" punches. Not even close. Cain may have walked through some shots later in the bout, but bear in mind that JDS doesn't remember anything beyond the second round. That's going to impact his the effectiveness of his striking a bit.

    Right now, if they fight 10 times, Cain wins 7, maybe even 8, in my opinion. If JDS looked for a change of camp, or brought in someone to help him create distance and bring some fluidity to his transitions and have him mix up his striking more instead of a pure-boxing stance, those odds get dramatically closer, and I'd love to see those fights. At a distance, JDS was great for the two rounds he can actually remember. The problem is without a dramatic improvement in Dos Santos' game, Cain isn't going to allow Dos Santos to fight him at striking distance.

    I think that's what JDS is trying to say, albeit much whinier and more clumsily.

    I think Cain is amazing--and there is no denying he's better than Dos Santos [and isn't a whiner, to boot]--but some of the stuff posted on here is a little rose-colored. JDS doesn't have to hit him behind the ear. The headkick that KO'd Hunt? That would do it.

    rh
    Well said sir. Apparently around here, if it's not a compliment; it's an insult. IMHO.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahdizzle View Post
    Well said sir. Apparently around here, if it's not a compliment; it's an insult. IMHO.
    Thanks.

    I think a point that I meant to make, and didn't, is that JDS was every bit as dangerous of a HW as Cain at the time of their first fight. Cain's improvement has made him a more dangerous fighter at this point.

    Of course, even if JDS continues to improve, there is nothing stopping Cain from continuing to refine his own skillset and keep the current gap static...which is also to say that if JDS is going to simply complain and make excuses, that's not a strong indication he's rushing back to the lab to work on holes in his game.

    But I have to disagree with anyone who dismisses the first fight as entirely the result of a bum knee, or thinks that Cain is an indestructible machine that power punches don't effect.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    Yeah, Bye.

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    Pretty much agree rh. Cain has a game plan that limits JDS's and JDS's hasn't made one to limit Cains other than a KO punch. After a few rounds of Cain JDS doesn't have the same KO power= no change in game plans Cain keeps winning.

  5. #45
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    I wish JDS was able to keep Cain from getting a hold of him and pressuring him against the cage so much. JDS just couldn't defend himself from it and was slowly ground down to a stump.

    I agree with you riv that Cain is not on another world than JDS like some make it seem.

    In the thread I made a while back about combining fighters, Cain and JDS would be an unstoppable championship hoarding machine.


  6. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with the Velasquez bandwagon.

    In no way am I saying Cain wasn't dominant in both wins, and in no way am I saying that he's not a better, more skilled fighter than JDS.

    But I don't see him as being on a completely different level than JDS, I don't think the first fight can be dismissed as a fluke because of Cain's knee, and I think anyone who thinks Cain is just going to walk through JDS's best punches isn't watching the same fight I saw.

    Cain is a better fighter because he's adapted more. He's always been a more complete fighter, but he's come back from the loss much more focused and brought more to the table. JDS is trying to beat Cain with a strategy Cain figured out almost two years ago. He's literally not doing anything different. But he's got the power and the skill to beat Cain, if he can employ a better plan. He rocked him twice in the first, but didn't look to follow or to create distance after either shot--he allowed Cain to clinch and recover. Note: clinching and recovering is NOT "walking through" punches. Not even close. Cain may have walked through some shots later in the bout, but bear in mind that JDS doesn't remember anything beyond the second round. That's going to impact his the effectiveness of his striking a bit.

    Right now, if they fight 10 times, Cain wins 7, maybe even 8, in my opinion. If JDS looked for a change of camp, or brought in someone to help him create distance and bring some fluidity to his transitions and have him mix up his striking more instead of a pure-boxing stance, those odds get dramatically closer, and I'd love to see those fights. At a distance, JDS was great for the two rounds he can actually remember. The problem is without a dramatic improvement in Dos Santos' game, Cain isn't going to allow Dos Santos to fight him at striking distance.

    I think that's what JDS is trying to say, albeit much whinier and more clumsily.

    I think Cain is amazing--and there is no denying he's better than Dos Santos [and isn't a whiner, to boot]--but some of the stuff posted on here is a little rose-colored. JDS doesn't have to hit him behind the ear. The headkick that KO'd Hunt? That would do it.

    rh
    Agree with most of it, but especially the camp part. Who does he train with? The Nogueiras?
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  7. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakara=Excitement View Post
    But can you not admit that a fighter getting hit behind the ear is done for, for the most part. I'm not taking away anything from JDS first win, but I'm just stating what happened. JDS touched Cain's chin numerous times in there next 2 bouts, while hurting Cain on occasion, never dropping him that I can remember.
    Absolutely, taking a shot behind the ear is debilitating.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    Agree with most of it, but especially the camp part. Who does he train with? The Nogueiras?
    Last I checked...which is odd that he's kind of dissing them. But he really needs to bring in a fantastic grappler who can help his clinch game and above all, his dirty boxing. At distance, he was working Cain...but Cain's work from the clinch was even better than Junior's from distance.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    Yeah, Bye.

  8. #49
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    He could really benefit from a month at Xtreme Couture with Randy himself.

    Blackhouse is full of finesse fighters and specialists. Not too many "grinders" as I'd define them. Tough guys, for sure. Just not the type of guys who are going to grind on you until you break like Cain.
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  9. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    Absolutely, taking a shot behind the ear is debilitating.


    Last I checked...which is odd that he's kind of dissing them. But he really needs to bring in a fantastic grappler who can help his clinch game and above all, his dirty boxing. At distance, he was working Cain...but Cain's work from the clinch was even better than Junior's from distance.

    rh
    I agree with your earlier post that one cannot consider JDS' first victory a fluke. If they had a 4th fight, it could easily happen. Hell we don't have to consider a future fight for that, Cain was badly rocked in the first 10 seconds of the 3rd fight. I was surprised that JDS' didn't jump on that but I guess he was cautious of being taken down.

    I don't agree that Cain was getting worked from a distance. In the second fight, even before Cain dropped JDS in the first round, Cain was getting the better of the exchanges. In the 3rd fight, I considered it quite even until the 3rd round. Cain landed the most significant shot from the distance in the 3rd round, but one can easily say that he was getting worked the previous rounds so it wasn't the freshest version of JDS, but nonetheless Cain still landed it. Also, as SimpleJack mentioned earlier, JDS' defense has been poor. He seemed to keep getting countered whether he landed or didn't land.

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