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Thread: My Mixed Martial Arts Rankings

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by VimyRidge View Post
    If every fighter had the identical body frame where do you think Jon Jones would rank?
    I've always personally thought of p4p as being more about fighters having equal size in terms of height and body weight not really figuring reach into that mix. Though I guess it should be.

    I'm holding out judgement on Jones til after the Glover match. I think a lot of people are under playing just how Goose skillset was in that fight and in turn are discrediting Jones. I think Jones not being really challenged as much in his previous match couple match ups made him a little complacent.

    Quote Originally Posted by VimyRidge View Post
    Everyone's p4p lists seem based on dominance in their division, whereas a guy like Frankie Edgar would probably be closer to #1 in a true P4P.
    As much as I like Frankie I'm not so sure about that now that he's fighting at 145. He lost to Aldo which drops him down a few spots right off the bat then didn't exactly go out and dominate Olivera in a match that was booked so he could get back in the win column. More fights at 145 will be a true indicator of where Frankie stands

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by VimyRidge View Post
    If every fighter had the identical body frame where do you think Jon Jones would rank?
    I don't see how this is relevant. It's pound for pound, not inch for inch. The shape of some one builds should not be taken into account. I will bite though. He would rank pretty high. He is very explosive. He has great wrestling. He great submissions. He is extremely hard working. He fights smart. He is very teachable and open minded about learning and utilizing new techniques. He has great submission defense, especially for a man with comically thin arms and legs. For someone with his reach he has good coordination. He has heart. He has conditioning. His success goes far beyond being big and tall like a lot users on this forum can't see, or aren't willing to admit, because of their hate for him (not necessarily talking about you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    As much as I like Frankie I'm not so sure about that now that he's fighting at 145. He lost to Aldo which drops him down a few spots right off the bat then didn't exactly go out and dominate Olivera in a match that was booked so he could get back in the win column. More fights at 145 will be a true indicator of where Frankie stands
    Frankie is a strange case. He has a great combination of skill, speed, heart and chin that translates very well to fighting bigger fighters at 155. He was fighting the best at LW and arguably beating them. At 145 he doesn't look as good. Oliveira isn't even top 10 and he had a very fight with Frankie.
    Last edited by kalebarker; 12-21-2013 at 12:02 PM.
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    I've always personally thought of p4p as being more about fighters having equal size in terms of height and body weight not really figuring reach into that mix. Though I guess it should be.

    I'm holding out judgement on Jones til after the Glover match. I think a lot of people are under playing just how Goose skillset was in that fight and in turn are discrediting Jones. I think Jones not being really challenged as much in his previous match couple match ups made him a little complacent.
    I think Jones is incredibly talented, I think Goose is incredibly talented. But I don't think calling into question how Jones performs without a ludicrous length advantage is necessarily downplaying Goose's skill set at all. How many p4p charts is Goose showing up on?

    p4p has always been subjective. It's just unfortunate that it's gotten incredibly biased by the zuffa marketing machine. They're looking to pimp fighters who can be blockbuster sellers, as opposed to trying to educate fans on the sport itself, and the components that make up a skillset.

    As much as I like Frankie I'm not so sure about that now that he's fighting at 145. He lost to Aldo which drops him down a few spots right off the bat
    I don't see how losing to the #1 p4p fighter is a huge problem...especially when it was his first fight in that weight class. No tune up, no adjustment period.
    ...then didn't exactly go out and dominate Olivera in a match that was booked so he could get back in the win column. More fights at 145 will be a true indicator of where Frankie stands
    Olivera is considerably bigger than Frankie, though...and in beating him, he beat very game fighter with size advantage anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalebarker View Post
    I don't see how this is relevant. It's pound for pound, not inch for inch. The shape of some one builds should not be taken into account.
    You're welcome to your opinion, but when p4p was historically described as "who would win if all fighters were the same size" I don't see how it couldn't be considered...particularly with a physical advantage as obvious and ubiquitous as Jones' reach.

    I don't want to get drawn into a point for point discussion of the rest of your post, but I'll categorically disagree with Jones having great submissions or submission defense. I think it's a huge hole in his game. He almost got subbed by an undertrained MW in Vitor, who hasn't subbed anyone of note in his entire career.

    The best thing I could say about Jones is that he's young and a great worker. He has potential to grow into a p4p elite, and in all probability he will. But right now, he's not even top 5.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    You're welcome to your opinion, but when p4p was historically described as "who would win if all fighters were the same size" I don't see how it couldn't be considered...particularly with a physical advantage as obvious and ubiquitous as Jones' reach.
    I consider size, when talking p4p, to be weight not build. I don't see you judge how a fighter would do if he was a different body type without actually seeing it. Looking at the opposite of Jon Jones, Sherk short arms, stocky build and thick, almost non existent, neck were a big compliment for his style. He was built to lay in someone guard and not give them something latch on to and get leverage to submit him. It suited his fighting style perfectly. Should we detract from his stockiness like people do from Jones gangliness?
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalebarker View Post
    I consider size, when talking p4p, to be weight not build. I don't see you judge how a fighter would do if he was a different body type without actually seeing it. Looking at the opposite of Jon Jones, Sherk short arms, stocky build and thick, almost non existent, neck were a big compliment for his style. He was built to lay in someone guard and not give them something latch on to and get leverage to submit him. It suited his fighting style perfectly. Should we detract from his stockiness like people do from Jones gangliness?
    Again, p4p is subjective. You can detract from Sherk if you'd like, I don't recall anyone ever saying he was p4p elite, even at his peak.

    When you consider the age-old boxing definition of p4p as "who would win if all the fighters were the same size" length advantages are going to play a role in that...or if they don't, the reasoning where someone is basing their opinion is flawed. It's not so much a question of whether Sherk would win/lose if he had longer arms, it's more of a question of whether Penn would still beat him without a reach advantage.

    That's not to say a fighter who routinely benefits from a physical advantage gets "penalized" or can never be ranked as elite. Georges and Anderson both enjoyed reach advantages, but both have much, much tighter skillsets than Jones, and neither of them enjoyed as much of a size advantage as he typically does.

    My concern is more where people overrate Jones, as you do, saying he has "great" submission defense, etc. That's just buying into the hype machine instead of really trying to look at what he's done and how he's done it.

    And once more, I'm not saying Jones sucks, or that he can never be accurately ranked elite. I'm saying it's premature bullshit right now. If he continues to improve and tighten up significant holes in his game, he's got all the potential in the world. But competing in an uneven playing field for the bulk of his career makes him an outstanding LHW...not p4p elite.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    Yeah, Bye.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    When you consider the age-old boxing definition of p4p as "who would win if all the fighters were the same size" length advantages are going to play a role in that...or if they don't, the reasoning where someone is basing their opinion is flawed. It's not so much a question of whether Sherk would win/lose if he had longer arms, it's more of a question of whether Penn would still beat him without a reach advantage.
    I always appreciate your opinion but I disagree with this. Factoring in body type if "all the fighters were the same size" is a leap of logic on your behalf. You can't judge how Jon would do if he limbs weren't as long as they were proportionate to the rest of his body. People use the argument he has holes in striking that he is able get away with due to his reach advantage, which is true. The longer a persons limbs are the hardest it is going to be have good coordination. If he had shorter arms he would have better, tighter, more accurate striking. His arsenal of techniques he throws would be different as well. We have no way to tell which holes would still be in his game if he was built differently. He would be a completely different fighter. We have no idea how good he would be.

    I don't think having a great build for MMA should be a detractor. It is a physical gift like explosiveness, speed, natural KO power and chin.

    The way I look at p4p. Let's say I was comparing Jones to Sherk. Would be to pretend someone used a shrink ray on Jones and shrunk him to the point he was at the same weight as Sherk.
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  7. #17
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    Not to bad honestly compared to some.. Didn't mind taking a look through the entire thing..

    Couple things I will just point out... WHERE IS PITBULL Freire at FW???? People are over-looking him badly because he had a long layoff.. He has had 5 FIGHTS since he has been back. A razor close split decision loss to the Champion at the time, Curran. Since then he has won 4 straight 3 of 4 vicious KO's, and one over UFC Vet Diego Nunes in 1:19 of round 1. I just don't understand how he isn't even breaking your top 10.

    And, Barao has to be ranked higher than Cruz, and Barao should be much higher on the P4P list in my opinion. He is unbelievable and has the longest active winning streak in MMA today, he is nuts.. Dominating Faber, Macdonald and spinning back kick KO over one of the best strikers in the division in his last defense of his Title. Barao will whipe the floor with Cruz mark my words!!!!!



    Other than that really I can't complain, good job.
    Fedor Emelianenko is the Greatest P4P MMA fighter to ever walk the earth, hands down.

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