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Thread: Will Athletic Commissions ever address Extreme Weight Cuts?

  1. #11
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    Fighters should not be allowed to cut below what they would weight at 7 percent body fat like they do for wrestling.

    Also I completely agree with Hoss on the same day weigh ins but I think the weight certification system that wrestling uses to stop severe weight cuts would be a good thing for mma.
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  2. #12
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    I think they should make a rule where adults are allowed to decide what they are doing with their bodies. If they wanna fight at a weight class, and they make weight then they can fight at that weight. People complain about how all the major sports are constantly making stupid changes that hurt the sport, and then in the same breath they call for stupid changes that hurt the sport. Does anybody really think that if they changed weigh in time, then magically everybody would do weight cuts in the healthiest possible way? Hell no, you'd have some guys that are dehydrated, and starving go out and fight. It ain't broke. Where there are weight classes, there are weight cuts. Once again, they are adults, let them make their own decisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Donosaur View Post
    I think they should make a rule where adults are allowed to decide what they are doing with their bodies. If they wanna fight at a weight class, and they make weight then they can fight at that weight. People complain about how all the major sports are constantly making stupid changes that hurt the sport, and then in the same breath they call for stupid changes that hurt the sport. Does anybody really think that if they changed weigh in time, then magically everybody would do weight cuts in the healthiest possible way? Hell no, you'd have some guys that are dehydrated, and starving go out and fight. It ain't broke. Where there are weight classes, there are weight cuts. Once again, they are adults, let them make their own decisions.
    I have to humbly disagree with you on this one.

    DC's Olympic cut was already mentioned... but what about Rumble Johnson? Now there is an example of an adult choosing to make a drastic weight cut that could easily be described as dangerous.
    As far as I know... voluntarily dehydrating one's self (to the point of extreme or excess) is INCREDIBLY damaging to a person's internal organs. That's NOT good.

    Also... as any fan of the sport knows... North American fighters (and Brazilians to an extent) are currently enjoying a sort of "unfair advantage" over competitors from other countries... as the "culture" of weight cutting (stemming from wrestling more than anything) is a fairly domestic occurrence.
    Put simply... Japanese/Chinese/British/Australian/etc. fighters are consistently "undersized" in the UFC because they fight in the weight class to which they belong. North American fighters are cutting insane amounts of weight, and garnering a HUGE size advantage (anyone watching TUF Nations this season!?!)

    Same day weigh ins would not only protect fighter health... it would also level the playing field. So that fighters all weigh the same. Or at least... close to the same. Which... really... is the whole POINT of having weight classes in the first place.

    Cut SOME weight. By all means.
    But the current state of affairs is getting ridiculous.

    Just my two cents.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Dirten View Post
    I have to humbly disagree with you on this one.

    DC's Olympic cut was already mentioned... but what about Rumble Johnson? Now there is an example of an adult choosing to make a drastic weight cut that could easily be described as dangerous.
    As far as I know... voluntarily dehydrating one's self (to the point of extreme or excess) is INCREDIBLY damaging to a person's internal organs. That's NOT good.

    Also... as any fan of the sport knows... North American fighters (and Brazilians to an extent) are currently enjoying a sort of "unfair advantage" over competitors from other countries... as the "culture" of weight cutting (stemming from wrestling more than anything) is a fairly domestic occurrence.
    Put simply... Japanese/Chinese/British/Australian/etc. fighters are consistently "undersized" in the UFC because they fight in the weight class to which they belong. North American fighters are cutting insane amounts of weight, and garnering a HUGE size advantage (anyone watching TUF Nations this season!?!)

    Same day weigh ins would not only protect fighter health... it would also level the playing field. So that fighters all weigh the same. Or at least... close to the same. Which... really... is the whole POINT of having weight classes in the first place.

    Cut SOME weight. By all means.
    But the current state of affairs is getting ridiculous.

    Just my two cents.
    I didn't say that people always make the best decisions, but it's their decision to make. The biggest problem with the world is that everybody feels the need to police everyone else's lives. I don't care how it's done in a different country. I don't care at all how somebody wants to cut weight at all. It's up to them. They live in a free country. If Frankie Edgar wanted to get to 145 by violently masturbating the weight off, that's up to him. Weight classes exist to create a fair playing field, it doesn't matter how you got to that weight, and like I said, if they moved weigh ins people would still cut too much weight (which would still be their right). Do you think Billy Abouttobecut isn't gonna cut a dangerous amount of weight still if the weigh ins were same day? Most guys would come in needing to replinish, but not being able to because they would have to fight in a few hours.
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    Donosuar it's no different from Athletic Commissions appointing refs to protect fighters when they can't protect themselves. Some fighters will keep fighting despite the fact that they are getting destroyed. Or how about the recent ban on TUE and other substances like Marijuana? The Commissions regulate the sport, therefore they regulate Adult behavior. That's what they do. The ref steps in to save the fighter (adult) from further damage. These fighters may think nothing of cutting 20-40 lbs in their youth, but when they get older those health problems will be there. The Europeans and Asians have the right idea, fight at your natural weight. If you can maintain a certain weight year round, then great. But if you naturally walk around at a certain weight, you should not be fighting 2-3 weight classes below that weight. It's dangerous and nullifies the very idea of having a "weight class".
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeodd2 View Post
    Donosuar it's no different from Athletic Commissions appointing refs to protect fighters when they can't protect themselves. Some fighters will keep fighting despite the fact that they are getting destroyed. Or how about the recent ban on TUE and other substances like Marijuana? The Commissions regulate the sport, therefore they regulate Adult behavior. That's what they do. The ref steps in to save the fighter (adult) from further damage. These fighters may think nothing of cutting 20-40 lbs in their youth, but when they get older those health problems will be there. The Europeans and Asians have the right idea, fight at your natural weight. If you can maintain a certain weight year round, then great. But if you naturally walk around at a certain weight, you should not be fighting 2-3 weight classes below that weight. It's dangerous and nullifies the very idea of having a "weight class".
    Crazy huge difference between being saved from the onslaught of somebody else, and saving you from yourself. Only one needs to be done. It's not close to the same thing. It's also not the same thing as taking a drug. It's a decision, a decision that an adult makes. We have the same option. If I wanted to enhance my job performance by altering my physique, then that's my choice. My job wouldn't stop me, and I damn sure wouldn't let anyone else make the decision for me. There is a difference in protecting a fighter while he is in the cage, or making sure nobody is taking a drug to give them an edge, and treating an adult like a child that needs to be protected from themselves.

    All I'm saying is that if a person wants somebody else to make all their decisions for them, then ok, but not everybody wants that. You are a free adult. You can decide what you do, if you aren't hurting someone else in the process, which in this case it only affects the athlete.
    Last edited by The Donosaur; 03-09-2014 at 06:14 PM.
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  7. #17

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    Given that MMA follows boxing a little too much in terms of regulations, I don't see same-day weigh-ins happening any time soon. Also, I think same-day weigh-ins pose an issue as well. Fighters will still try to cut weight and put weight on in a smaller amount of time. Trying to dehydrate, rehydrate and perform in a 12-hour period is much more dangerous than if they were given over 24 hours.

    What's more likely are rules of how much they are allowed to cut or put back on within a certain amount of time. For example, at 30 days, a fighter cannot weigh over 10% of his or her contract weight. At 7 days, a fighter must be within 5% of his or her contract weight. On the day of the fight, the fighter must be within 5% of his or her contract weight.
    Last edited by Dr. MMA; 03-09-2014 at 06:17 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by earle View Post
    10lbs is too strict in my opinion. A guy like Anderson Silva walks around well over 200lbs, some say in the 220lbs range, so now he wouldn't be allowed to fight at 185? That's crazy. If he can safely cut to 185 he should be allowed. For example, when Chael worked with Mike Dolce he dropped 30lbs very easily if you believe what he said. No marathon sauna sessions with rubber suits, just sensible eating and timing.
    As it was mentioned, Anderson doesn't cut 35 lbs...but he does cut 20, from everything I've heard.

    But the issue nobody has mentioned is "what does a weight class mean, if half the people are fighting in it weigh more than the limit of the class above it when they're actually fighting?"

    It makes no sense for me to have Anderson--or Weidman, since he's every bit as big as Silva--enter the cage around 207 or 2010 and fight for a MW title. It's an empty title, at that point.

    What is a person's "natural weight" anyways? It obviously changes (increases) as we get older, it's too subjective IMHO. I could say any number, who are you to tell me it's not? I'm not talking you specifically joeodd2, just hypothetically speaking to an official.
    This is actually able to be determined by fat content and electrolyte levels. It would mean more overhead cost for the promotion doing it, as the tests involved cost money, but it would be a better long-term investment in the sport. I'll get to that later.

    Maybe I'm not understanding the process, and maybe I'm just old school, but as dieticians are understanding more and more how the body works, it seems like safer ways to cut weight are emerging. If they're going to spend money studying something, I'd rather see them come up with a cheaper and quicker steroid test.
    We don't have any longitudinal studies on what weight cuts mean to a fighter's physiology.

    There has been strong anecdotal evidence that cutting weight during adolescence leads to premature drop in testosterone development...but nothing is proven at this point. Time and resources need to be devoted to determine it one way or the other\, but fighters are at risk in the present.

    Look at the rampant use of steroids in the WWE in the 80's...everyone thought it was great during it's heyday...and then Superstar Billy Graham had his legs amputated.

    Quote Originally Posted by MIZjitsZOU View Post
    Anderson doesn't cut 35 lbs. he may start camp there but he doesn't cut that. Difference in walk around weight and cutting weight.
    Yes. But I've heard he's generally rehydrated to 205+ when he fights at MW. And sonnen has openly stated he was somewhere around 210 for the rematch. I've also heard Jones is typically something like 225+ cageside.

    Quote Originally Posted by GL Jeff View Post
    DC was pulled from the Olympics because his body was shutting down due to weight-cuts.
    I hate weight cutting as a concept, but I'm a fan of accuracy.

    You can't compare the common practice of even 5 years ago to what is going on now. Dolce has revolutionized how people cut weight. I wouldn't go so far as to label it "safe" but it's nothing like the bullshit fighters went through back in the day.

    It is something that is going to have to be adressed, the only positive is a guy will cut weight and literally seconds after confirmed weight will begin the process of rehydrating and healing there body. But damage is still being done, no matter your diet, right now in the sport of MMA 98% of fighters are cutting unhealthy amounts of weight to fight in specific weight classes.

    Same day weigh-ins with % allowed over the limit would be a great move, make alot of fights a little more even in the size category, and you could make the argument that a weight class between 205 and 265 is needed.
    I agree with all this. Get physicians involved and make everyone involved aware of sweeping changes...implement new tactics that measure fat content, hydration and electrolytes cageside and let everyone know that this is happening 6 months out, so make allowances. Let the title holders change weight classes, if need be.

    Explain the consequences for missing for the first year: loss of percentages of purses, but also suspensions--and most importantly--include cornermen and trainers in those suspensions of licenses of fighters who come in heavy, and you'll have a period of adjustment, but everyone will get on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by earle View Post
    That is something I'm in favour of. I've wanted a weight class between 205 and 265 for a long time. Maybe they could have a "super HW" class which is 230lb+, while 206-229 is just regular HW.
    I've been calling for a 225 cruiserweight class for about 6 or 7 years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0SS View Post
    I think same day weigh-ins are a terrible idea for this sport. This isn't wrestling. There are strikes to the head in MMA.
    If it's done correctly, there would be no dehydration issues, and it would actually be safer than it is right now.

    I understand how difficult it is to read "if it's done correctly" in the current climate of officiating. But reforms are reforms...why not shoot for the moon?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Donosaur View Post
    I think they should make a rule where adults are allowed to decide what they are doing with their bodies.
    That's a great sentiment, if the information/education was there to support it.

    Unfortunately, it's not. You have adults making decisions based on faulty information, and then having problems down the road. And in today's society, that means litigation, and that's a drain on limited resources.

    rh
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  9. #19

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    They will need something like this story to at least show what the fighters are weighing in the day of:

    http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/7/22...maged-fighters

    Gatti-Gamache: A damaged fighter's quest for justice



    It may seem to some like the wrong time to talk about this nearly decade-old black eye on boxing given the recent death of Arturo Gatti, and I sort of skimmed past it out of respect for what Gatti did in his career when we discussed his legacy, but there's no mistaking the fact that Gatti's controversial 2000 knockout of Joey Gamache is a story that shouldn't go away until something is done.

    I loved watching Arturo Gatti. I was a huge fan of his, as pretty much everyone that loves boxing was. But that February night nine and a half years ago when Gatti knocked Gamache unconscious still sits wrong with a lot of people, and Gamache himself, who nearly died from the fight, is still in court trying to find justice.
    The judge in the case, Melvin Schweitzer, winced several times during the video, apparently troubled by what took place.

    Gamache nearly died in the hospital that night, and sustained permanent brain damage from the nearly six minutes of action.

    Soon after, he sued the New York State Athletic Commission for negligence, claiming that Gatti was allowed to weigh in over the contracted weight limit of 141 pounds. Gatti entered the ring with what appeared to be a considerable size advantage.
    For those that have seen the fight, or even a photo of the two in the ring together, it's hard to argue that Gatti didn't clearly have a size advantage. He did. The weigh-in was the source of much controversy, as it seemed the scales may have been tampered with. They agreed to fight at 141 pounds. Gamache made the limit fine. Most believe Gatti did not, including highly-respected boxing journalist Thomas Hauser:

    "I don't know anybody outside of the Gatti camp who seriously maintains that Gatti made weight for that fight. They jumped him on and off the scale very quickly. It seemed pretty clear to me that someone at the commission had been told in advance that there might be a problem and the response was, 'Don't worry about it.'"
    On fight night, HBO's unofficial scales had Gamache at 145 pounds. Gatti weighed 160. And though Joey Gamache has been left brain damaged by the fight that nearly killed him and ended his career, but he doesn't blame Gatti:

    "He was a fighter, just doing what he's supposed to do," Gamache says of Gatti. "The commission was supposed to protect us fighters."
    Arturo Gatti was scheduled to testify for both sides in this case. We'll never know what might've happened with that. Now, nobody but Gatti's team and the people involved with the weigh-in really know for sure, and the article, while very interesting (especially taking boxing jargon and knowledge into the courtroom), is an emotionally told tale. Still, you can't help but continue to wonder if Gamache's life could have been totally different, and if it should have been. It's one of those terrible stories that shouldn't be forgotten.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by earle View Post
    That is something I'm in favour of. I've wanted a weight class between 205 and 265 for a long time. Maybe they could have a "super HW" class which is 230lb+, while 206-229 is just regular HW.
    There unfortunately there hasn't really been enough talent for that type of division in the past. HW has typically always had the weakest overall talent pool to put fights together from and with a cruiser weight division you would be losing a good portion of the guys at heavyweight. (including the current champ most likely)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Donosaur View Post
    I didn't say that people always make the best decisions, but it's their decision to make. The biggest problem with the world is that everybody feels the need to police everyone else's lives. I don't care how it's done in a different country. I don't care at all how somebody wants to cut weight at all. It's up to them. They live in a free country. If Frankie Edgar wanted to get to 145 by violently masturbating the weight off, that's up to him. Weight classes exist to create a fair playing field, it doesn't matter how you got to that weight, and like I said, if they moved weigh ins people would still cut too much weight (which would still be their right). Do you think Billy Abouttobecut isn't gonna cut a dangerous amount of weight still if the weigh ins were same day? Most guys would come in needing to replinish, but not being able to because they would have to fight in a few hours.
    It's a free country and all that and people can do what they want.. but when you want to work for someone you follow their rules. This isn't a matter of free choice this is a matter of an athletic commission tasked with fighter safety doing what is right.

    There is plenty of evidence out there of weight cuts causing health issues and something that should be addressed by the people running the shows.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Donosaur View Post
    Crazy huge difference between being saved from the onslaught of somebody else, and saving you from yourself. Only one needs to be done. It's not close to the same thing. It's also not the same thing as taking a drug. It's a decision, a decision that an adult makes. We have the same option. If I wanted to enhance my job performance by altering my physique, then that's my choice. My job wouldn't stop me, and I damn sure wouldn't let anyone else make the decision for me. There is a difference in protecting a fighter while he is in the cage, or making sure nobody is taking a drug to give them an edge, and treating an adult like a child that needs to be protected from themselves.

    All I'm saying is that if a person wants somebody else to make all their decisions for them, then ok, but not everybody wants that. You are a free adult. You can decide what you do, if you aren't hurting someone else in the process, which in this case it only affects the athlete.
    Unless you are working for a totally corrupt or negligent company if you show up for work doing something that is unhealthy in order to do your job they are going to step in and do something... or fire you to absolve themselves from the potential consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    There has been strong anecdotal evidence that cutting weight during adolescence leads to premature drop in testosterone development...but nothing is proven at this point. Time and resources need to be devoted to determine it one way or the other\, but fighters are at risk in the present.
    There is also a lot of information coming out about the effects of weight cutting on the brain. Which slows your reaction times and motor functions come fight day as this area does not recoup from a weight cut in the same time as the rest of your body. It also leaves you more susceptible to being knocked out more easily as well.

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