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Thread: UFC broadcaster Jon Anik: Lyoto Machida still wants Jon Jones rematch

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalebarker View Post
    Gustaffson isn't even the biggest fighter Jones has faced, Bader is.
    People are talking reach & length, not physically built.

    Bader's reach is 74"
    Goose's reach is 79"
    Jones' reach is 84.5"
    *According to Wiki.


    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows View Post
    What i dont get is that people are so quick to write off Jones success because of size advantage and reach - yet Goose (who has virtually the same size and reach advantage over the LHW division minus Jones) isnt subject to the same criticism? Makes sense i guess?
    5.5 inches does not equal virtually the same size and reach advantage.

    Goose has a reach advantage over most guys at LHW. Jones has a freakish reach advantage over ALL guys at LHW. Does Goose's reach give him an advantage, sure. Does Jones have an advantage over the entire LHW div? Hell yes.

    Jones is a great athlete, dont get me wrong, but to discount the massive reach advantage is wrong.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat--Smasher View Post
    People are talking reach & length, not physically built.

    Bader's reach is 74"
    Goose's reach is 79"
    Jones' reach is 84.5"
    *According to Wiki.




    5.5 inches does not equal virtually the same size and reach advantage.

    Goose has a reach advantage over most guys at LHW. Jones has a freakish reach advantage over ALL guys at LHW. Does Goose's reach give him an advantage, sure. Does Jones have an advantage over the entire LHW div? Hell yes.

    Jones is a great athlete, dont get me wrong, but to discount the massive reach advantage is wrong.

    Gus reach was always labeled as 76.5". Then for the Jones fight he started saying his reach is really 81". O then they started putting it at 79". I don't buy that.

    Bader the biggest fighter Jones faced? Lol

    Im not a "Jones hater". Just funny when ppl ride his nuts and have no clue what they're talking about (most his fans). His reach helped his td defense as well since ppl have to shoot in from so far out. Oh and lets not forget is elbows/thumbs in the throat of his opponents as well as the oblique kicks. Guy is also a dirty fighter

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat--Smasher View Post
    People are talking reach & length, not physically built.

    Bader's reach is 74"
    Goose's reach is 79"
    Jones' reach is 84.5"
    *According to Wiki.

    5.5 inches does not equal virtually the same size and reach advantage.

    Goose has a reach advantage over most guys at LHW. Jones has a freakish reach advantage over ALL guys at LHW. Does Goose's reach give him an advantage, sure. Does Jones have an advantage over the entire LHW div? Hell yes.

    Jones is a great athlete, dont get me wrong, but to discount the massive reach advantage is wrong.
    I understand his reach is an advantage, but the Jones haters on this site make it out a huge advantage that doesn't have his flaws. Having gangly arms like he does not make them a lot less durable. If a fighter was able to start landing leg kicks on his it wouldn't take long to chop him down. It is harder to generate power when his arms that skinny. Fighters like Bader are going to be able to hit a lot harder. It is a lot harder to be coordinated when your are that gangly. Other fighters that employ are large reach advantage like Grove and Struve always leave themselves wide open when they miss with their punches and vulnerable to bull rushes. Jon movement has been able to avoid those. For someone as gangly and young as Jones is, he is very coordinated. His longs legs make him more succeptible to armbars, kimura, ankles lock, most limb submissions. The only person that has come close to landing a sub on his is Vitor Belfort.

    His success goes far beyond his reach. Jones is very explosive. He is very coachable. He has shown great conditioning. His chin and heart was proven in the last fight. He is very good at following game plans. If he did have average reach, his striking arsenal would be a lot different and he would employ techniques that better suit his build. His striking would be a lot smoother because his limbs are shorter. He would have more power because he is more compact. He would still be a very successful MMA fighter.
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalebarker View Post
    I understand his reach is an advantage, but the Jones haters on this site make it out a huge advantage that doesn't have his flaws. Having gangly arms like he does not make them a lot less durable. If a fighter was able to start landing leg kicks on his it wouldn't take long to chop him down. It is harder to generate power when his arms that skinny. Fighters like Bader are going to be able to hit a lot harder. It is a lot harder to be coordinated when your are that gangly. Other fighters that employ are large reach advantage like Grove and Struve always leave themselves wide open when they miss with their punches and vulnerable to bull rushes. Jon movement has been able to avoid those. For someone as gangly and young as Jones is, he is very coordinated. His longs legs make him more succeptible to armbars, kimura, ankles lock, most limb submissions. The only person that has come close to landing a sub on his is Vitor Belfort.

    His success goes far beyond his reach. Jones is very explosive. He is very coachable. He has shown great conditioning. His chin and heart was proven in the last fight. He is very good at following game plans. If he did have average reach, his striking arsenal would be a lot different and he would employ techniques that better suit his build. His striking would be a lot smoother because his limbs are shorter. He would have more power because he is more compact. He would still be a very successful MMA fighter.
    I won't deny his athleticism, that goes hand in hand with his size but tools talking that "p4p kingpin" shit don't know wtf they're talking about. His first fight with someone just his height and it exposed quite a bit.

    His striking defense is atrocious. Its always been to run back and extend his arm out. His wrestling which I thought was gonna be what cost Gus the match was also exposed. Most ppl shoot in from too far and he can easily stop them.

    I never questioned his heart or chin, it takes a lot to keep fighting after getting hurt in that armbar or in a war like the Gus fight. But why is he whining so much about who he fights now? You're supposed to be the best in your division or "p4p kingpin" right? Just tell Dana to line them up and just fight.

  5. #45
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    I don't know anybody who is saying Jones sucks, or that he isn't an incredibly dominant champion. Simply stating someone isn't p4p elite based on covering holes in their skill set with an absurd length advantage doesn't do anything to discount their success--it just means that they're not p4p elite.

    Not to mention, nobody is saying Goose is anything close to p4p elite.

    But take a minute and think about it--Georges and Anderson were both criticized in p4p rankings based on length/reach advantages. Goose is the closest anyone has come to Jones in length, and he still had to deal with a 5.5" disadvantage--without bothering to do all the math, I'd hazard a guess that 5.5" would be one of the biggest length advantages Georges or Silva ever had--and it's Jones' smallest.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1inthechamber View Post
    I won't deny his athleticism, that goes hand in hand with his size but tools talking that "p4p kingpin" shit don't know wtf they're talking about. His first fight with someone just his height and it exposed quite a bit.

    His striking defense is atrocious. Its always been to run back and extend his arm out. His wrestling which I thought was gonna be what cost Gus the match was also exposed. Most ppl shoot in from too far and he can easily stop them.

    I never questioned his heart or chin, it takes a lot to keep fighting after getting hurt in that armbar or in a war like the Gus fight. But why is he whining so much about who he fights now? You're supposed to be the best in your division or "p4p kingpin" right? Just tell Dana to line them up and just fight.
    That depends on your perception p4p. People on this site like to think it means "if they had the same reach" but I have never seen P4P defined that way. P4P compares two fighters if they were the same size and weight. Two fighters of different builds that weight the same and put test the same in a water displacement test are the exact same size regardless of reach advantage. If you are going to detract Jones for his reach, which is a physical gift it only makes sense to detract other fighters for their physical gifts. Henderson and Liddell are two fighters that lacked skill compared to a lot of other fighters they faced but made up for it with ridiculous chin and power. Comparing Jones and GSP P4P and saying "what if Jones had average reach?' is like comparing Tyson and Sugar Ray and saying "what if Tyson had average power?" At that point you are not comparing two hypothetical versions of fighters as opposed to ones you see competing. As long as Jones can dominate fighters that weigh more than him like Bader, he is high up on the p4p.
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1inthechamber View Post
    Gus reach was always labeled as 76.5". Then for the Jones fight he started saying his reach is really 81". O then they started putting it at 79". I don't buy that.

    Bader the biggest fighter Jones faced? Lol

    Im not a "Jones hater". Just funny when ppl ride his nuts and have no clue what they're talking about (most his fans). His reach helped his td defense as well since ppl have to shoot in from so far out. Oh and lets not forget is elbows/thumbs in the throat of his opponents as well as the oblique kicks. Guy is also a dirty fighter
    In your entire Time here you have only posted negative things about Jones in every Jones related discussion. That is precisely what a hater would do.
    Last edited by CtGreat; 03-25-2014 at 09:53 PM.
    Jones Era >> Machida Era
    Favorite fighters: Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, Michael Johnson, Jose Aldo, Chris Weidman.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalebarker View Post
    That depends on your perception p4p. People on this site like to think it means "if they had the same reach" but I have never seen P4P defined that way. P4P compares two fighters if they were the same size and weight. Two fighters of different builds that weight the same and put test the same in a water displacement test are the exact same size regardless of reach advantage. If you are going to detract Jones for his reach, which is a physical gift it only makes sense to detract other fighters for their physical gifts. Henderson and Liddell are two fighters that lacked skill compared to a lot of other fighters they faced but made up for it with ridiculous chin and power. Comparing Jones and GSP P4P and saying "what if Jones had average reach?' is like comparing Tyson and Sugar Ray and saying "what if Tyson had average power?" At that point you are not comparing two hypothetical versions of fighters as opposed to ones you see competing. As long as Jones can dominate fighters that weigh more than him like Bader, he is high up on the p4p.
    I haven't seen a post that I literally disagree with each point in a long time.

    Nobody is saying p4p means having the same reach. I've been one of the strongest advocates of incorporating length into the discussion from the time I started here, but you're misconstruing my point: I'm saying it's a factor, but not the end determinant. I had Georges and Anderson ranked p4p elite despite routinely hosting a reach advantage...based on their skill sets. Both of them are more well rounded than Jones, with fewer holes in their games. Simply reducing that argument to "fighters with reach advantage can't be ranked" is entirely misunderstanding the concept to begin with.

    I'd also say that your characterization of Liddell and Henderson as fighters who lacked skill is a bit shocking. While they [understandably] faded in the latter part of their careers they were some of the earliest incarnations of the complete package in MMA--fighters with a very strong wrestling base who had devastating striking power. Certainly, the fact that both fighters had great chins was a part of their success, but they didn't simply rely on those chins the way Jones relies on his reach.

    But to each his own, I guess.

    rh
    All manner of men came to work for the News: everything from wild young Turks who wanted to rip the world in half and start all over again -- to tired, beer-bellied old hacks who wanted nothing more than to live out their days in peace before a bunch of lunatics ripped the world in half.

    Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
    The Rum Diary

    Yeah, Bye.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivethead View Post
    I haven't seen a post that I literally disagree with each point in a long time.

    Nobody is saying p4p means having the same reach. I've been one of the strongest advocates of incorporating length into the discussion from the time I started here, but you're misconstruing my point: I'm saying it's a factor, but not the end determinant. I had Georges and Anderson ranked p4p elite despite routinely hosting a reach advantage...based on their skill sets. Both of them are more well rounded than Jones, with fewer holes in their games. Simply reducing that argument to "fighters with reach advantage can't be ranked" is entirely misunderstanding the concept to begin with.

    I'd also say that your characterization of Liddell and Henderson as fighters who lacked skill is a bit shocking. While they [understandably] faded in the latter part of their careers they were some of the earliest incarnations of the complete package in MMA--fighters with a very strong wrestling base who had devastating striking power. Certainly, the fact that both fighters had great chins was a part of their success, but they didn't simply rely on those chins the way Jones relies on his reach.

    But to each his own, I guess.

    rh
    I didn't say they lacked skills. I said they lacked skill compared to a lot of fighters they have faced. They both had great wrestling but also had very flawed striking. Hendo has never had good striking technique but has found a home for his H bomb largely because of his ability to eat a punch and deliver it. Their power and chin a huge part of their success.

    If having a natural born reach advantage is a detractor, so having a speed, power and chin advantage. They all can be used overcome having less skill and technique, but none of them should be a detractor they should all be viewed as a positive.

    P4P should be: If both fighters were shrunk down proportionately so they were the same weight, who is the better fighter.

    If Jones and GSP were the same weight and Jones was able to edge GSP he would be the better P4P fighter.
    "If a man with no arms and a man with no legs started learning karate, the same light bulb would appear over every head in Japan. Thatís right: Glue them together and see if it can kill a panda."

  10. #50
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    ANyone who says Jones is best p4p doesn't know what pound for pound means. The best p4p best fighter in my opinion is Renan Barao. Second probably Aldo. I might get shit for saying this, but Jones might not even be top 5.

    What Renan Barao is doing during this winning streak is un fucking believable. Closest thing to Fedor's reign we are ever going to see.
    Last edited by IceCold48; 03-25-2014 at 09:16 PM.
    "DO YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO SIT THERE AND LET YOU KILL ME JON???"

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