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Thread: 10 Reasons Why Jon Jones is Hated

  1. #321
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    Read this one awhile back and thought it was interesting ...

    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/5/7/...e-mma-analysis

    It basically questions if Koscheck learned the 'art of eye pokeitsu' during his amateur wrestling days. Same could be said for Jones, no? One thing is for certain, The Eye-pokealypse is here!
    Quote Originally Posted by SickNasty View Post
    Couldn't Jones just close his hand instead of fingerfucking people's faces?
    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    I wanted to watch two fat guys stare at each other huffing and puffing

  2. #322
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    I'd copy/paste the article here, but there are some good gifs there that explain what the author is talking about, and the article makes more sense with them in there
    Quote Originally Posted by SickNasty View Post
    Couldn't Jones just close his hand instead of fingerfucking people's faces?
    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    I wanted to watch two fat guys stare at each other huffing and puffing

  3. #323
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    Josh Koscheck's eye-poking is becoming a major story. We have seen him poke the eyes of three recent opponents and these pokes have yielded great effect. His eye poke of Johny Hendricks during UFC on Fox 3 put Johny in great jeopardy as did his pokes on Mike Pierce.

    Though these eye-pokes appear to be related to a striking technique, I am of the mind that Koscheck was first exposed to this variety of eye-poking as an amateur wrestler and has adapted it to mixed martial arts. One could chalk these pokes up to an innocent by-product of a range finding method. It's impossible to state with certainty if Koscheck is doing this on purpose, but the fact remains that his opponents keep getting poked in the eye with consistency. Let's look at where Koscheck could have picked up the habit. Some evidence even exists of Kos committing such an infraction as far back as his amateur wrestling days.

    SBN coverage of UFC on Fox 3

    The Eye-pokealypse is here! Read this article to discover its origins in Koscheck's amateur wrestling background.

    Intentional eye-pokes pop up from time to time in amateur wrestling. Having been the recipient of various eye pokes in my day, I hold eye-pokers in the deepest of contempt. Eye-pokes are explosively painful, are rarely called by refs, and can cause the pokee to lose unjustly. Eye-pokes happen on all levels of wrestling but the more that is on the line, the greater the poking possibility. Here is Terry Brands famously getting thumbed in the eye by Cuba's Jesus Wilson in the 1993 world freestyle wrestling finals.



    This demonstrates both the potential pain caused by these pokes and the cynical ingenuity of the eye poker. Brands is tougher than boiled and a thumb to the eye caused him to writhe in pain on the mat. Ow! Imagine how much of a difference an eye-poke such as this could make at a crucial juncture in a fight. Eye pokers are trying to inflict as much pain as possible in the hope that it gives them a competitive advantage. The skillful pokers are clever about it as well. Wilson knows quite well that he is perfectly positioned so that the referee can not see his dastardly thumb gouge.

    Josh Koscheck has been cultivating quite a track record of his own for dastardly ocular assaults. He executes his eye-poke in a specific way: extending his lead hand forward in a pawing manner with the palm of his hand turned down and fingers extended forward. The beauty of this nefarious technique is that it can be performed under the premise of functioning only as a range finding device for striking and, as a bonus, it sometimes allows for opponents to poke themselves in the eye with their forward motion.



    For those unaware of what Josh Koscheck's eye-pokes look like, here is another fighter in a non-UFC fight with a demonstration of the approximate "technique" (the fighter in white trunks here is pawing forward like Koscheck, though not necessarily intentionally poking his opponent's eyes).



    I believe that Koscheck first learned a technique similar to this as an amateur wrestler, that he has incorporated it into his striking patterns and that he is indeed doing it on purpose.

    In freestyle or scholastic wrestling, the act of forcefully extending the arm palm forward to an opponents forhead or scalp is a common and effective maneuvre. This allows a wrestler to initiate contact and engage in a hand fight while maintaining a desirable distance. You usually see this performed by wrestlers who have offenses that rely on space and speed. This certainly describes Jordan Burroughs and here he is performing this sort of hand jab to set up a spear single in last year's world finals against Iran's Goudarzi.



    Wrestling technique tangent: Notice that Burroughs is primarily extending his hand over his rear leg, which is his left. This sort of "wrestling jab" is the opposite of boxing where the jab originates from the lead leg side. Extending the front leg hand in wrestling leaves one open to a quickly timed single from an opponent. Reaching with the rear leg hand has the same potential effect but the leg is farther away, increasing reaction time and thus making it a safer procedure.


    Wrestling is not a tickle fight and there is nothing wrong with a good stiff hand pop to the head. This becomes a dirty tactic, however, when the fingers are intentionally turned down in the hopes of making contact with the eyes. In theory the eye contact can be unintentional, but I would argue that when a skillful wrestler commits repeated "unintentional" pokes, that the act speak for itself.

    I do not mean to characterize amateur wrestling as some sort of free for all of dirty tactics. By and large it is not. But occasionally, to my disapprobation, some feel the need to grab the advantage through various forms of skulduggery. One of these forms is the eye-poke in question. Never have I seen this variety of eye poke performed with such flagrance as in the 2010 wrestling match at 197 pounds between Purdue's Logan Brown and Kent State's national champion Dustin Kilgore (Brown is 1-0 in his MMA career and I hope that Kilgore eventually enters the sport). In a way I am indebted to Brown as he has given me ample opportunity to provide GIF illustrations of what the Koscheck style eye-poke looks like on a wrestling mat. Based on how his opponents would react to him in competition before the instant match, I had figured that Brown was somewhat dirty, but this match takes the cake. Brown (in the black headgear) paws his fingers forward and pokes Kilgore in the eyes

    again..



    and again...



    and again from his butt after a takedown (not totally relevant but I find its ridiculousness amusing)



    I could make eight or so more more gifs with additional pokes from Logan, and this is a seven minute match! The problem posed to a referee by this method of eye poke is its benign appearance in the context of a combat sport; the act alone does not itself prove the specific intent to poke the eyes. Koscheck has such "success" with his pokes by exploiting this problem. Referees have to make the difficult judgement over whether there is anything wrong with simply extending the fingers to touch the opponent's head. These difficulties aside, refs need to increase their level of vigilance and rigidity of enforcement. Consider that if a competitor were to spend hours in a practice room extending his hand thusly, he would develop a sense for the exact plane on which his hand needs to extend in order to rake an opponents eyes. After all, wrestling, and martial arts in general are about precision: the repetition of the same results from the same actions. Brown, above, was aware of the likely results of his finger thrusts in the above match and I think that Koscheck is also guilty of the very same thing in his recent fights.

    This accusation bears a little more gravity considering that Kos may have been guilty of this act during his wrestling career. Here is Kos wrestling University Of Illinois standout Matt Lackey at the 2002 US freestyle open.



    A bald-headed Koscheck, in blue, is seen here with some suspicious paws to the face and it is very possible that Lackey's glance at the ref is meant to inquire whether he saw the fingers near his eyes as well. I believe that it is reasonable to assume that Koscheck is every bit a knowledgeable about how to cagily poke the eyes in a wrestling environment as Brown does above and that he brought this knowledge with him into the Octagon.

    Josh Koscheck probably first learned the art of the eye-poke as an amateur wrestler and modified it to serve as a tool in mixed martial arts where strikes are present and the gloves leave the fingers exposed. If a high level wrestler performs a wrestling related maneuver in a way which repeatedly and predictably results in eye-pokes, it is likely that the intention behind these acts is to poke the eyes. Koscheck happens to be an incredibly skillful wrestler and the frequency at which these pokes occur prove their intent. These pokes are intentional and unacceptable. The Eye-pokealypse is happening now, now it is in the referee's hands to deal with it.

    Come back next time for an article on nut grabbing. (Psssst, watch Wilson's right hand)

    Lazy Ass
    Quote Originally Posted by Sick_Lunatic View Post
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  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    Lazy Ass
    Yes, yes I am lol. That and I'm at work, and had to go to a meeting. And I can't remember how to do gifs really either, keep forgetting.
    Quote Originally Posted by SickNasty View Post
    Couldn't Jones just close his hand instead of fingerfucking people's faces?
    Quote Originally Posted by KevoOnTheRadio View Post
    I wanted to watch two fat guys stare at each other huffing and puffing

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick_Lunatic View Post
    Yes, yes I am lol. That and I'm at work, and had to go to a meeting. And I can't remember how to do gifs really either, keep forgetting.
    It's a little different depending on your browser, but if you use chrome right click the image/gif and select "copy image url". Then click the "insert image" icon on the reply box and paste the image url into the box. Make sure you click the "from url" tab and deselect "Retrieve remote file and reference locally".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sick_Lunatic View Post
    I've always liked strudel.



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    In theory the eye contact can be unintentional, but I would argue that when a skillful wrestler commits repeated "unintentional" pokes, that the act speak for itself.
    enough said

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by RearNakedStroke View Post
    I think a dirty fighter is someone who intentionally breaks the rules to gain an advantage over someone. I don't think Jones does this but i do agree that he should have a point taken away without warning next time he pokes someones eye. But fighting sloppy is different than fighting dirty in my opinion.

    I'm okay with the oblique kicks. I just think that is a smart technique and isnt meant to injure people. Its just a different kind of jab.

    Anyone who has failed a drug test due to PEDs is a much more dirty fighter than Jon Jones.
    Sloppy or intentional, Jones should still be held accountable for his actions. Just like knees to a downed opponent, a point should be taken if this 'sloppy' act happens more than once in a fight or a fighter is a repeat offender.

    Would it be ok for a fighter to consistently knee an opponent in the head while they are pinned up against the fence fighting to get up from a take down w/ 3 limbs still on the mat (due to either poor judgement or sloppy technique)?

    No other foul, if done numerous times in a fight on numerous occasions by the same fighter could be justified by claiming it is sloppy technique.


    Quote Originally Posted by BonesKnows
    agree with pretty much all of this.
    Flopping like a fish out of water.

    I thought you said Jones should not have any points deducted because it was due to his Muay Thai techniques?

    Now he should be penalized next eye poke?

    I thought you claimed Jones should not be faulted at all on the eye pokes because he has never had a point deducted from a ref for it?

    Your stance is softening, no?

    Can you at the very least admit Jones is a chronic eye poke offender?




    Quote Originally Posted by W.Silva>C.Norris View Post
    enough said
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  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick_Lunatic View Post
    Read this one awhile back and thought it was interesting ...

    http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/5/7/...e-mma-analysis

    It basically questions if Koscheck learned the 'art of eye pokeitsu' during his amateur wrestling days. Same could be said for Jones, no? One thing is for certain, The Eye-pokealypse is here!
    Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
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  9. #329

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    I think this was one of the better posts in the last few pages:
    Quote Originally Posted by RearNakedStroke View Post
    I think a dirty fighter is someone who intentionally breaks the rules to gain an advantage over someone. I don't think Jones does this but i do agree that he should have a point taken away without warning next time he pokes someones eye. But fighting sloppy is different than fighting dirty in my opinion.
    well, this part of it, anyway.

    I think there is a spectrum of acceptable/appreciated behavior; and not everyone is going to subscribe to the same perspective, particularly if they're a fan of Jones [or any other fighter that's being discussed].

    For me, the demarcation between "dirty" and "clean" isn't set by the unified rules, it's set by intent. If a fighter doesn't care if his opponent gets injured and exploits opportunities that can cause needless injury and keep them out of the game for an extended period of time, they're dirty. But there are gradients along the spectrum between "clean" and "dirty" fighters that can indicate how dirty someone is. Off the top of my head, I'd probably break it up something like this:


    A fighters who care about their opponents health and try their best to win without inflicting needless injury
    ...
    B sloppy fighters who would prefer not to needlessly injure their opponents, but who fail in their technique and foul/cause injury
    ...
    C fighters who don't care about opponents getting injured and will exploit any edge to win that isn't expressly against the rules
    ...
    D fighters who use PED's to gain an edge
    ...
    E fighters who will do anything to win, including PEDs and/or deliberate fouls
    ...

    Personally, I think anything past A and B are dirty, and B is still cast into shadow because a professional shouldn't be sloppy and should be honing techniques that don't needlessly injure their opponents, particularly if they're fighting at the level where they are showing up on PPVs.

    I don't think PED's are always necessarily worse than deliberately causing long-term/unnecessary injuries, but that's a case-by-case judgement, and I can certainly see where they would be.

    I don't know bones, so I--like everyone else on the board--really not qualified to state where he lies on this spectrum, but I can say with confidence he's absolutely not in A. I would hope he's not doing anything deliberately, but his trolling vid casts that into doubt--minimally, it's a graphic illustration that he doesn't care; at it's worst, he's laughing at getting away with deliberate fouls. So I'd say he's either too inept to keep from poking people's eyes--another nail in the coffin of his alleged P4P prowess--or he doesn't care about eye pokes, which puts him on the dirty side, to me.

    But I get that it's a personal opinion, from someone who doesn't really care about his success or failure.

    I'm okay with the oblique kicks. I just think that is a smart technique and isnt meant to injure people. Its just a different kind of jab.
    have you ever had your knee hyper extended?

    It might not be intended to cause long-term injury, but it's intended to cause damage to the joint, and it's far less controllable than an armbar/leglock/kimura/etc. There are simply too many variables for me to think it should be legal, but I get that they are...I'll just never be convinced that they aren't dirty.

    rh
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    wait....did you just say Genki Sudo unretired?

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat--Smasher View Post

    Flopping like a fish out of water.

    I thought you said Jones should not have any points deducted because it was due to his Muay Thai techniques?

    Now he should be penalized next eye poke?

    I thought you claimed Jones should not be faulted at all on the eye pokes because he has never had a point deducted from a ref for it?

    Your stance is softening, no?

    Can you at the very least admit Jones is a chronic eye poke offender?
    When I was in high school, there was an autistic guy in my music class. One day he just happened to overhear someone mention that Elton John is gay. They weren't trying to be offensive or derogatory in any way but when he heard this he lost his mind and started screaming "NOOOOOO ELTON JOHN IS NOT GAY." Well this situation kind of reminds me of that. Just a huge fan choosing to ignore facts and evidence (no matter how obvious it is) to defend their idol and believe what they want to believe.

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