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Thread: Manager: Silva return likely early 2015, potentially vs. Nick Diaz

  1. #11
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    As a big silva fan, I'd like to see him make another run... You act as if he has zero chance versus weidman. If you believe that I respect the opinion, but I disagree. The first fight he got caught and likely learned from him. Yes he lost the first round in the second fight, and then the injury occurred. I would like to know how that fight would have played out if the injury hadn't occurred. He might lose again, and he certainly doesn't deserve to be right back in contention after 2 back to back finishes. But I think to start him with a big name mid level guy like cung or Diaz and just see where it goes.

  2. #12
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    Also, penn got owned for 10 rounds right? Just literally destroyed... I don't think that's a fair comparison. Junior finished Cain the first time too... That wasn't a clear indicator as to what would come...

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by rspier View Post
    Also, penn got owned for 10 rounds right? Just literally destroyed... I don't think that's a fair comparison. Junior finished Cain the first time too... That wasn't a clear indicator as to what would come...
    Ummmm.....no...

    You were better off sticking with just the original post. It looked as if it was well thought and out and not full of nut huggery and bias. The follow up post however brings it down several levels. Not Bones Knows level but still.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Return Of...... View Post
    Ummmm.....no...

    You were better off sticking with just the original post. It looked as if it was well thought and out and not full of nut huggery and bias. The follow up post however brings it down several levels. Not Bones Knows level but still.
    My point is, I feel like there is little reason to speculate about Edgar penn 3... 10 rounds... Unless I'm remembering wrong penny didn't have much for Edgar.... Silva and weidman have gone 3, and one that ended on an injury . Not the same. Plenty of different outcomes could occur for either fighter... So not a great comparison....

    I don't really see how this is bias and nutt hugging? I readily admit that silva hasn't one a round vs weidman, I'm not even saying he wins a third fight... But I do think it's too early to count him out, and is like to see a different income. I would much rather see him get another shot, and get knocked out... Then the story end in the injury.... I think he has to earn the shot though.... Again, how is this nutt hugging?
    Last edited by rspier; 06-05-2014 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rspier View Post
    My point is, I feel like there is little reason to speculate about Edgar penn 3... 10 rounds... Unless I'm remembering wrong penny didn't have much for Edgar.... Silva and weidman have gone 3, and one that ended on an injury . Not the same. Plenty of different outcomes could occur for either fighter... So not a great comparison....
    Penn DID NOT lose all 10 rounds. You are def remembering it wrong. He, by most people's accounts, won the first fight. It was a highly controversial decision, where 2 judges scored it 5-0 and 4-1 rounds for Edgar, which was clearly off. Penn had easily won rounds 1 and 2, possibly the 3rd as well. The 4th round was so close that most MMA news outlets had it 10-10. The 5th round was the only round that easily could have been scored for Edgar.

    The second fight was easily Edgar's. You could apply the same logic to Penn/Edgar fights to Silva/Weidman. Asking "What IF the judges had it right the first fight and scored it for Penn?" is the same as asking "what if Silva didn't clown around in the first fight and didnt break his ankle in the 2nd fight?"

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMA4EVERRR View Post
    Penn DID NOT lose all 10 rounds. You are def remembering it wrong. He, by most people's accounts, won the first fight. It was a highly controversial decision, where 2 judges scored it 5-0 and 4-1 rounds for Edgar, which was clearly off. Penn had easily won rounds 1 and 2, possibly the 3rd as well. The 4th round was so close that most MMA news outlets had it 10-10. The 5th round was the only round that easily could have been scored for Edgar.

    The second fight was easily Edgar's. You could apply the same logic to Penn/Edgar fights to Silva/Weidman. Asking "What IF the judges had it right the first fight and scored it for Penn?" is the same as asking "what if Silva didn't clown around in the first fight and didnt break his ankle in the 2nd fight?"
    Ok. Thanks for the correction. I'll go rewatch that fight.

  7. #17
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    After Miocic/Fabiano and Ortiz/Shlemenko, I'm good on the whole moving up in weight to fight a bigger opponent thing. Silva would bleed his face until the doctors stopped it.
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  8. #18
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    I'm not saying anything close to Silva having zero chance at all, but your post here is an almost exact illustration of my point, which was that they're both compelling bouts:

    Quote Originally Posted by rspier View Post
    Also, penn got owned for 10 rounds right? Just literally destroyed... I don't think that's a fair comparison. Junior finished Cain the first time too... That wasn't a clear indicator as to what would come...
    Aside from the MMA math that Weidman finished Anderson twice--winning every round they've fought--doesn't really equate to Junior beating Cain once, I'd also state emphatically that I don't think Penn got "owned" or "literally destroyed," and absolutely not for 10 rounds.



    This may well have been before you were watching MMA, but history has been rewritten for the first Penn/Edgar fight, and rewritten incredibly poorly. I had Penn winning it, albeit by a close margin. Certainly, BJ lost the second fight, and all 5 rounds, but Frankie was never close to finishing it.

    I'm not going to dredge up the old "a motivated Penn can beat anyone" nonsense. I think Edgar is a strong favorite to win the third bout, but the fight is very, very watchable, at least for me. In a nutshell:

    The first Penn/Edgar fight was a travesty. Penn outstruck and outgrappled Edgar, statistically, and statistically won three rounds. Thus, there was a great deal of controversy, leading to the immediate rematch. I believe Penn bought into his own hype and felt he won the first fight, so there wasn't any need for him to do anything differently. Frankie, on the other hand, adapted and increased his edge even more, clearly outclassing BJ in all 5 rounds in the second matchup. But it wasn't an "ownage," or a "literal destruction," by any means. the rounds were closer than revisionist history would have you believe.

    A third fight Penn/Edgar is interesting, in that BJ has shown some significant changes since that point: he's not going in without any gameplan and simply reacting to the fight itself; he's utilizing an underrepresented grappling game. He's finally changed camps. And since none of those factors mean that he'll win, it's safe to include that it's his first fight at FW, and there is no way to predict if he'll even make weight, never mind what impact the weight class will have on his conditioning and performance, or how the weight cut might impact his fragile emotional/mental state.

    None of that means Penn will win--or even be anything but an overwhelming underdog--but logic dictates that it's at least as compelling of a fight as a third matchup between Weidman and Anderson. Certainly, Anderson could catch lightning in a bottle, but he's getting older [and older], he's coming back from a devastating injury, and he hasn't had an effective answer for anything Weidman has done as of yet.

    My point was that it's funny how many alleged "hardcore" fans dismiss Penn/Edgar III as a forgone conclusion--most often on faulty assumptions based on poor revisionist history--while simultaneously feeling Anderson has a 50/50 chance--or is even a favorite!--to beat Weidman.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMA4EVERRR View Post
    The second fight was easily Edgar's. You could apply the same logic to Penn/Edgar fights to Silva/Weidman. Asking "What IF the judges had it right the first fight and scored it for Penn?" is the same as asking "what if Silva didn't clown around in the first fight and didnt break his ankle in the 2nd fight?"
    ...except the clowning is revisionist history as well. It's a way for die-hard Anderson fanboys to pretend the first fight didn't count, except it didn't happen. Anderson himself has said repeatedly he wasn't clowning, that it was strategy, but it didn't work.

    If you look at his history, Anderson often used superior head movement to get fighters to commit to strikes while staying just outside of their range. One of the [many!] reasons why Anderson was so successful is he generally had a reach advantage over these opponents, meaning that he could stay just out of their range while putting an over-committed fighter within his own range. Couple that with a striker of a prime Anderson's speed and accuracy, and you're going to have a counterstrike clinic.

    It wasn't clowning, it was an effective strategy, but one that failed to account for Weidman's range. Anderson miscalculated in a deliberate and strategic move he'd played so often before, and it cost him.

    rh
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  9. #19

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    Even if it was clowning I would argue that it is irrelevant. Weidman threw an ugly sloppy goofy looking back hand that served the purpose of making Silva move his head towards Weidmans left that led to the knockdown punch. What looked, at least to me as desperation, was actually a pretty sweet set up move to end the fight.

    The second fight, I still think it was a bit of luck. Sure the check was meant to slow down or stop the leg kicks but it wasn't a fight ending move on purpose. Not luck that Weidman won mind you but just bad luck that ended when and how it did.

    With Silva's age combined with the fact that he appeared to be slowing down even before the Weidman fight along with his injury and I am actually move excited about BJ Edgar 3 at this point. Silva comes back and crushes someone and that might change however

  10. #20
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    I was watching mma then, but actually missed that fight due to work, and was not into the forums or posting then. I've actually learned a lot of this forum, and am happy to stand corrected on that point.

    I still would like to see a rematch that does end in a second rd leg break... Assuming he returns successfully and earns the shot.

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