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Thread: Fedor: If I was in my prime, I'd want to fight Cain

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
    As stated before, IMO Cain has never demonstrated anything in either his striking or wrestling to lead me to believe he would overwhelm Crocop in his prime (in a ring under Pride rules). I believe Crocop would absolutely have destroyed him in the stand-up (not really debatable IMO), and had a great track record with dealing with wrestlers in general.
    I'm really starting to think you have never watched a Cain Velasquez fight..... not a joke.... 100% serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by braddahmatt View Post
    I'm really starting to think you have never watched a Cain Velasquez fight..... not a joke.... 100% serious.
    He says "in a ring under Pride rules," which is pretty understandable (even though I'm not sure that I agree). Cain uses the cage very effectively and it's a big part of his game. Crocop, on the other hand, excelled in a ring.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by braddahmatt View Post
    I'm really starting to think you have never watched a Cain Velasquez fight..... not a joke.... 100% serious.






    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    Let me handle your last point first, its not my opinion here this is a fact, case in point Cain has both a Black Belt in BJJ, is a highly accredited wrestler an accredited Kickboxer as well as a Maui Thai fighter, GSP is a world renown kickboxer as well as a wrestling ace, and a BJJ ace, Silva is talented in BJJ, Maui Thai, as well as he has shown amazing boxing skills and finnesse. In the prime of Pride you had fighters who were great at once disipline and started picking up a second because they had to to compete, now you are having fighters come up with several disiplines under their belt, thus making them more of a complete fighter. This is not something you can argue this is fact not opinion.
    You do realize all 3 of these men have their base in a single discipline, who started picking up a second discipline because they had to in order to compete, don’t you?
    Anderson Silva took all of that finesse and Mau Thai and lost to a can in Pride, all while competing under unified rules and winning. And let’s not forget his fight against Ryo Chonan, where he had the height, weight, size, and strength advantage, and still lost, and would have lost even without the submission.
    GSP, who has his base in Kyokushin, went on to adopt wrestling after being finished by Matt Serra.
    Cain, a wrestler who has adopted Maui Thai.
    Sounds just like the "secular" fighters who you described in Pride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    Here is another area that I disagree with, please tell me how many times JDS was taken down before the Cain fights? I know in the second fight with Cain we had 11 take downs, that has never happened before in the UFC, over 2 take downs per round. As for Cains striking skills most of the time he is outstriking opponents, he landed what 111 significant strikes combine that with his 11 take downs, he completly and totally destroyed JDS in a way no one has seen.
    Sure I’ll try my best to tell you how many time JDS was taken down before his fight with Cain, but first answer me this; how many wrestlers did JDS face before fighting Cain with decent speed and power. Carwin comes to mind, and maybe GG as a bjj blackbelt, but neither of these men are known for their speed or takedowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    And JDS is a better striker than Crocop
    JDS is a good striker, he has good combos and awesome footwork. But like Cain, he has demonstrated nothing that leads me to believe he would be able to outclass Crocop in his prime. Even in his decline, Crocop was able to counter JDS frequently, and that was after his knee was blown. Crocop was more explosive, had much more diverse striking, and great reflexes. I would say Crocop wins 8/10 times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    Again this is fact look at Hunt vs JDS
    What part of the fight are you referring to? The end, or the part where JDS took him down? And I obviously don’t need to remind you that Crocop defeated Hunt in a kickboxing match, no takedowns needed. And just to add to that, this fight took place when Hunt still had his nearly invincible chin, whereas JDS's fight with him occurred after he had already been KO'd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    of course he is going to be more explosive, however you are forgetting several things, firstly its not just how fast you can shoot a double but also your leverage and power behind it, your strength.
    Not to single out Randleman, as the other grapplers Crocop faced had different strengths, but he had a low center of gravity, speed, power, and strength.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    tell me do they have height divisions in wrestling, no they have weight classes more weight means you have more to throw around while wrestling, this is why they seperate the divisions by weight, not by height
    They do not have height classes, so why even mention Randleman being “smaller and lighter” since he has competed at HW in the past?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Neustra View Post
    we can break it down from a wrestling perspective however because of Cains power, endurance, and his size he will be able to continually press foward and continully wrestle if he had to, but he can also work the clench game on CroCop,
    In a cage, assuming he didn't get KO'd, this is the most likely scenario. In a ring, not so much.
    Last edited by The Joker; 08-09-2014 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
    Anderson Silva took all of that finesse and Mau Thai and lost to a can in Pride, all while competing under unified rules and winning. And let’s not forget his fight against Ryo Chonan, where he had the height, weight, size, and strength advantage, and still lost, and would have lost even without the submission.
    You lost me here.

    "With great power comes great responsibility."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordCC View Post
    You lost me here.
    What part exactly? The part about the size, reach, strength, weight advantage? Or the part about where he was more than likely going to lose the decision if he didn't pull off a finish?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
    What part exactly? The part about the size, reach, strength, weight advantage? Or the part about where he was more than likely going to lose the decision if he didn't pull off a finish?
    You don't say in the original post that Chonan would have more than likely won the decision, you said that he would have won even without the sub which you can't possibly know in a sport as dynamic as MMA where the outcome can be changed in a matter of seconds.

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    Chonan from what I remember was getting murdered by Silva until he pulled off that highlight submission.

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    Chonan was winning

  9. #99
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    I consider Fedor the greatest of all time so I would have to go with Prime Fedor defeating prime Cain, although Cain is certainly appearing he'll go down as one of the all time great heavyweights and probably at #2 right now behind Fedor. Anyhow I wouldn't be surprised if Cain won but I really cannot deny a prime Fedor as he won every fight no matter what advantage the other fighter seemed to have, whether it be wrestling, submissions, striking, etc. Fedor always found a way to win.

    Brown Pride

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    Its a completely useless argument. The difference in enviroments that the two fighters competed in are too much to overcome and find a happy medium to judge this question on. The cage/ring difference alone makes this argument impossible. Both fighters are(were) very dominant in their own enviroment, but in Fedor's case, his success didnt translate well at all into the cage. Having watched Cain's fights, I feel his style would not translate well into a ring at all. For the most part, I think wrestlers will always be better cage then ring fighters, which speaks volumes to the points brought up about the pride fighters success against wrestlers listed in several posts above. This is also the reason I feel a lot of the pride fighters didnt translate as well to north american MMA as was expected.

    All in all, what Im trying to say is home field advantage wins this hypothetical fight, and more due to adaptation then skillset.

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